Interview: Snippets of the Papacy of Pope Francis on His 87th Birthday

By Lavoisier Fernandes.

On the 17th of December, Pope Francis celebrates his 87th birthday and this year also marked the 10th anniversary when the world first watched Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio step out of the balcony of St. Peter’ as Pope Francis. After five ballots, at the end of the second day of voting the white smoke poured out of the comignolo, the copper and steel tube on the roof of the Sistine Chapel. The Habemus papam (we have a pope) moment was characterised by the shyly waves in one hand by the new pontiff and “Buona Sera” (good evening in Italian) which was greeted with cries of delight and applause of the thousands gathered at the Piazza San Pietro. The evening culminated with a beautiful gesture before the Apostolic blessing Urbi et Orbi- “Let us say this prayer, your prayer for me, in silence,” he told the cheering crowd.

Pope Francis is a Pope of gestures, very much pastoral in his vision. Ten years on some of the ecclesial themes of this pontificate have been discernment, encounter, accompaniment, emphasizing the mercy and tenderness of God, the revival of pastoral theology, synodality, how to care for creation, and how to engage, rather than confront, secularization. Of these one of the buzz words that has been dominant is synodality.

In 2016 for an interview on Heavens Road Catholic FM for my podcast series “Talking Faith” I caught up with the Late Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor Archbishop Emeritus of Westminster Diocese and former President of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales at his Chiswick residence in London. Cardinal Cormac was one of the cardinal electors who participated in the 2005 papal conclave that selected Pope Benedict XVI and he was a close ally of then fellow Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who was elected as Pope Francis in 2013.

Following are extracts of the transcript of my hour long interview I had with the Late Cardinal Cormac which in essence gives us a good understanding of the personality of the Holy Father whose pontificate has been a revelation for the Catholic Church.

Transcript of my interview with the Late Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor:

Lavoisier: Your Eminence, you were appointed Cardinal in the same consistory as Pope Francis by St. John Paul II in 2001. You have worked closely with the Holy Father. In short, what can you tell us about the Holy Father?

Cardinal Cormac: Let me say first, that I met him, when we were both made cardinals, as you were saying in 2001, and I used to sit next to him at Cardinal meetings, so I got to know him very well. And you know, what struck me about him was, he was a man who was intelligent, spiritual, and had a mind of his own and had his own thoughts about things. He had come from a different background in Argentina, South America and lived amongst very poor people. So, I found him, a very good man to be with and very realistic about the world, about the church and about his hopes for the future.

Lavoisier: The Holy Father has developed a reputation for having a great sense of humor. His laugh and his smile just speak for itself. And I believe when he was elected pontiff one of the first things, he told the College of Cardinals was that I do hope God forgives you for electing me pontiff. Does this sense of humor, and his smile and his personality make it easy for you to deal with the Holy Father?

Cardinal Cormac: I think it’s not just me. Everybody relates to Pope Francis in the sense that he always takes people where they are. We’ve all got ambitions, we got to be holy, but he says this is who you are, this is where you are. Let’s take a step ahead towards what is good. And people relate to that. It doesn’t matter whether you’re Catholic, whether you’re a Christian, whether you are from another faith or no faith, he will still speak to you. He will be warm towards you. And he will engage with you.

Lavoisier: Pope Francis, many relate to him as the pope of surprises. From the moment he stepped out of the balcony of St. Peter’s for the first time. Everybody in the world was surprised, and almost most of the TV channels got it wrong. As he was not one of the favorites, Your Eminence was the election of Pope Francis a surprise to you?

Cardinal Cormac: I think it was a surprise, generally. But for me it was not, knowing him well, and being present at the meetings before the Conclave. I didn’t actually go into the conclave because I was over 80. But I talked to the other Cardinals. And you know with conclaves, one is looking at possible candidates and realistic candidates. Up until 30 or 40 years ago, it was usually Italian Cardinals. But since the election of St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict, the field has been wide open. And a lot of people felt that it would be good to have a Pope elected out of Europe. Let’s get away from old, tired Europe and go to the new world. I knew cardinals from both north and south America and for me Cardinal Bergoglio stood out, so I wasn’t totally surprised.

Lavoisier: Is Pope Francis the pope of many first?

Cardinal Cormac: I think choosing the name Francis was a bit of a genius. Because it’s a dangerous name to choose. Because if you choose Francis, we’ve got to be a bit like the great St. Francis of Assisi and, this Pope has a similar style of simplicity and poverty. He lives in a hostel not in the Vatican palace. He queues for breakfast with all the other priests who are living there. It’s a very simple life and he talks to everybody. I’d like to tell the story of when he came out of his room one morning at about half past five, six in the morning. And the Vatican guard was standing outside, and he said to him, how long have you been standing here? The Vatican guard said I have been standing four hours. Oh, he said, that’s a long time. I’ll get you a chair, to which the guard said Oh, no Holy Father you can’t do that. Why not? the Pope said. So, the guard then said because the captain of the guards says I’ve got to be standing. So, the Pope said look here. I’m the captain of the captain. So, I’m going to get you a chair. So, he got a chair and gave the guard a sandwich. Simple, but shows how he relates to anybody.

Lavoisier: What do you think is Pope Francis’s vision for the church?

Cardinal Cormac: I think his vision for the church is possibly threefold. Firstly, he has written an encyclical called the Joy of the Gospel. The Gospel is the message of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who gives us good news. And the good news is that God is love and God is merciful. And God has conveyed that with his son Jesus Christ. And the Pope wants all Christians and Catholics particularly, to live that life more freely and of course through prayer, the sacraments and to be generous in their Christian lives. I think that’s his first priority. He has wider priorities; he wrote another letter on the environment. He’s worried about this world, and concern for this world and for the ecology and all that, because he sees this world, that has been given to us in a mysterious way by God and yes with all the theories of evolution, but God is there, this world is given to us, so we must care for it and look after it. And no other Pope has written a letter like him on the care of the earth. So obviously that’s a big priority for him. And as we’ve seen recently, he cares particularly for the family, he feels that family is crucial to good living. That’s why he called a synod meeting of bishops on the family to get the views of the bishops and the faithful people on what are their views of the family? How does one deal with family in the modern world. The last thing I’d say about his vision for the church is that he wants to share his authority with other bishops. The Pope has a particular role, but he shares it with the bishops. And he is taking steps to see how that can happen. And he’s giving people more freedom in their own lives and in their own diocese, for bishops to be free to live the gospel. Because living the Gospel is different here in London say than down in areas say in Manila.

Lavoisier: Your eminence, do you think he’s bringing about reform without compromising the doctrine of the Church, he seems to have a different style.

Cardinal Cormac: Sometimes, people are a bit alarmed while he’s speaking, especially while he is on a plane. He gets an interview with a journalist, and he answers their questions very realistically. But he never compromises what’s the deepest truths of the faith, we call it the deposit of faith. Those are things about God about Jesus Christ, about what we believe about Jesus Christ, and how we celebrate that belief in the sacraments and the liturgy. People say but is he clear about the indissolubility of marriage. Yes, he is, but he also knows that we live in a broken world, and that God is merciful. He’s not giving away anything regarding the fundamentals of Catholic doctrine or Catholic morality or Christian morality.

Lavoisier: Do you think the Holy Father is very much like Pope John XXIII. A breath of fresh air for the Catholic Church ready to address any of the challenges be it on the family, the role of women in the church, capitalism, immigration.

Cardinal Cormac: Yes and no. No, because in a way, I think Pope John XXIII was a wonderful Pope, who again was a breath of fresh air, and he called the Vatican council which was crucial in the life of the church. But I have known the other Popes like Pope Paul VI who I found was a wonderful man and who had a difficult pontificate trying to fulfill the hopes of the council. Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict, they all came with their own styles, and I wouldn’t want your listeners to feel that other popes were not up to it. They all were special in a different way.

Lavoisier: Do you see the legacy of the Second Vatican Council being fulfilled in the pontificate of Pope Francis

Cardinal Cormac: I think that’s what they say about general Councils it takes at least 50 years to be fulfilled and realized for all sorts of reasons. And I will say that the hopes of the Vatican Council in terms of the governance of the church, ecumenical outreach and in terms of how the church is now being fulfilled in the pontificate of Pope Francis.

---

Lavoisier Fernandes, born and raised in Goa, is currently based in West London. His faith is “work in progress”—a lifelong journey.  He has always been fascinated by the Catholic faith thanks to his Salesian schooling.  His passion is podcasting, theology, the papacy, and volunteering.  He has hosted the ‘Talking Faith’ series for Heavens Road FM Catholic Radio, connecting with ordinary men and women within the Catholic faith, other faiths and examining issues affecting both Church and society. He has also hosted the ‘Heart Talk’ series for  Shalom World Catholic TV.  He presently contributes for the Goa Diocesan magazine Renovação and the Faith Companion Magazine in England.